A graphic artist is sending an InDesign file for a brochure that I will be changing somewhat. I do not have all the fonts she used. Which would be best? She asks, "Do you want me to send it with fonts changed to outlines? Or would you want me to list all the fonts I use in this document? I can also send you a high-rez pdf of each page so you can see how it is supposed to look. I will also need to download the images used in the document."

Any suggestions? I am not sure what changing to "outlines" is. The document will be used in print and converted for online use.

Thanks for any recommendations,

Jamie,
"Outlines" means that the text will be converted to 'paths' like when you
create shapes with the pen tool, in InDesign or Illustrator, etc.
Hence, you will see what looks like text, but will actually be an
'outline' of what used to be the text.
They will now be shapes. (Albeit, shapes that you could modify if desired.)

If you will not need to modify the text, "outlines" may be okay.
What may happen though, is that once the text is converted, the outlines may
convert thicker than desired, making it look as if the text got fatter. Or it may not.

If there is a chance that you will need to modify the text,
you will need to purchase the font.

A high-res PDF with fonts embedded, will give you exactly what the artist
has designed without you needing any new fonts to see it exactly.

Chita,

Thank you. I will need to modify the text, but I do not need the font that was used. I am free to choose a new font.

I will request the indd file as is. It will probably be the easiest.

Jamie, She could get the fonts to you, if you prefer, by doing a "package" of the file.
I have InDesign CS2.
PROCESS:
Open document.
Under the "File" menu, select "Package" near the bottom of the list.
A dialog may or may not request corrections to the file: missing fonts to "fix" or substitute, image links broken, etc. After everything is fixed, if necessary, select the "Package" item again.
InDesign does the miraculous: It will create a folder containing the document, copies of all fonts used, and copies of linked files (images, pdf's, whatever).

This is what I send whenever I have something commercially printed, and it is virtually foolproof. - Have never had Prepress call with problems yet.

By all means, DON'T do the "outlines" unless it's a last resort. - A real nuisance for body text, but OK for a design element.

FYI: Adobe Anti-piracy initiative
"Generally, font software is copyrightable. The font software licensing agreement, also known as the end user license agreement or EULA, is a legally binding contract. If you make an unauthorized copy of font software, you lay yourself and your organization open to severe penalties and criminal proceedings. Even though you can distribute a document that requires a given font to other people, you can only give them a copy of the font you used if they already have a license to use that font and you have confirmed that such a license exists."

The fonts are not critical. I am able to change to similar fonts that I own and keep things legal. Thanks for the tips though.

Chita-
I'm aware of the copyright restrictions, but have sent InDesign packages to commercial printers, who I assume are obligated to delete any fonts for which they don't have a license after the job is completed. (If they don't, I assume they would have to purchase licenses font-by-font, and no doubt their costs would be passed on to the customer ordering the job.)

In Jamie's case, (or any other like it- for example, pro designers) I wonder if he could do the same, as a contracted agent doing work for someone who DOES have a legally licensed copy of the font.

This is an important topic for clarification. Last year I had to send an ornament font I had purchased, as part of a commercially printed job. It was not an Adobe font, but one produced by a smaller foundry. Part of the job had the font converted to outlines as a design feature. (That's a question in and of itself: If the font is converted, and subjected to design elements such as color fills, shadows, nuanced changes in shape, how does that impact licensing rights?)
Elsewhere in the same job, the same ornament font was used as a normal font. I would just about guarantee that the printer did not have a license for it. This issue is an important one, because some web companies are making new fonts from small designers/foundries available (for purchase) virtually by the thousands.

I think most commercial printers have licensed Adobe font bundles and perhaps some from other major foundries. However, I can imagine that it would be difficult if not impossible for all printers to have purchased licensing for ALL the fonts available now. This is another situation virtually created by the internet, and needs to be addressed.

Jamie - Glad the font is not a major issue for you, but this is still an important topic.

quote:

Originally posted by CHunter:
FYI: Adobe Anti-piracy initiative
"Generally, font software is copyrightable. The font software licensing agreement, also known as the end user license agreement or EULA, is a legally binding contract. If you make an unauthorized copy of font software, you lay yourself and your organization open to severe penalties and criminal proceedings. Even though you can distribute a document that requires a given font to other people, you can only give them a copy of the font you used if they already have a license to use that font and you have confirmed that such a license exists."

No Mary Jo,
That is not the way it works, for any entity.
The EULA states very clearly how the process goes.
And trust me, Adobe doesn't play if they find you doing otherwise.

Given the sensitivity of the font issue, it would be interesting to know why Adobe even includes fonts in the process of packaging a job for commercial printing. One would think they would require designers to get font lists from their printer before even doing a job.

This sensitivity is no different than giving someone software applications.
Fonts are software, and the same rules apply and have applied for decades.

If the fonts aren't included in a document, when it is opened on
the other end, the integrity of the design would be 'compromised.'
Text layout would not look the same, text would be highlighted in pink,
and text would reflow. Packaging with the fonts, for one, saves that headache;
but you are required to play legal.

Well now I'm confused. When I worked for a service bureau clients had to include their fonts to get their jobs output. And now where I work clients are required to include their fonts if we don't have them and when we send our jobs out to service bureaus they require us to include our fonts or or convert to outlines. I've always been under the impression this was legal and the fonts had to be deleted after the job was complete.

Bibo,
To get a 'definitive' answer I asked Thomas Phinney, who
is the Product Manager Fonts and Global Typography for Adobe Systems.

His response is quoted below:
"It depends entirely on the licensing terms (EULA) for that particular
font. Or for each font, really. :/

In general, you're correct. Most licenses work as you say, including
Adobe's. Our license allows the user to supply the fonts to the printer
to ensure that the right font versions are used, but only if the printer
assures the user that the printer has a legit license for the fonts. A
few licenses are more liberal, but not many. Many licenses are more
restrictive than this.

There are also a surprising number of font licenses with terms that you
would find unexpected.

This chart is not completely current, but will give you some ideas for
what the landscape is like:
http://fontlab.wikidev.net/Image:Interrobang2-EULA-chart.gif"

Quote from Chita: "Packaging with the fonts, for one, saves that headache;
but you are required to play legal."

I understand why packaging the fonts is necessary to the integrity of a file. So what does "play legal" mean? - verifying that the printer has a license for the font (even though you include a copy of the one in the design file), or "buying" a license for the printer? Or?

Mr. Phinney's response is interesting, but relative to Adobe specifically.

Some of my previous comments highlight the fact that literally thousands of fonts are now being produced by "small" but excellent designers and sold over the internet. (Take a look, for example, at MyFonts.com) This multiplies the issue many, many times over, and goes far beyond just Adobe's licensing regulations. It would be immensely difficult, if not impossible, for all commercial printers to own licenses for all the fonts that might be included with design files.

It's interesting that this whole issue has come about as the industry has converted from mechanicals to digital files. With mechanicals, there was no font issue that I'm aware of, because a printer simply "photographed" (sorry all you pros if terms are not quite correct) a prepared design or page as part of the production process. They weren't dealing with the digital elements of a design file. Now they are.

(Before my first book was produced, I toured a book printer near Ann Arbor, and part of the process was literally photographing all the pages of a book, one by one, preparatory to producing the film - nearly 14 years ago now.)