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Jedi Master
Picture of janp
posted
I borrowed a Dell 3400MP projector for a party
when hooked up to my Macbook the picture projected is very dark in comparison to the picture on the Macbook,,,any ideas??

the 3400MP is on the smaller side of a projector
 
Posts: 1057 | Location: dearbon,MI , USA | Registered: June 11, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Past President
Picture of Terry White
AIM: Online Status For terrywhite at mac dot com
posted Hide Post
When the bulb in an DLP/LCD projector starts to go rather than just failing all at once, they get darker over time. So you may need a new bulb.

The other problem is that the Dell 3400MP is a DLP projector and I've NEVER gotten good image quality from ANY DLP projector I've tried. They tend to have extremely high contrast (grays become white) and the colors are off (yellow looks green).

For VIDEO DLP projectors do a great job. For data they do not (unless you're doing PowerPoint with a few basic colors - as most business presentations tend to be).

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Terry White,


----
You can never go wrong by doing the right thing.

http://terrywhite.com

There are two kinds of computer users: those who have lost data and those who are about to — backup your Mac!
 
Posts: 6154 | Location: Atlanta, GA | Registered: June 10, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jedi Master
Picture of janp
posted Hide Post
but i was playing a movie from apple/itunes /rental. Should the management setting be on RGB or the other choices?

How many hours are those bulbs good for with video?
 
Posts: 1057 | Location: dearbon,MI , USA | Registered: June 11, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jedi Council Member
Picture of George Little
posted Hide Post
quote:
For VIDEO DLP projectors do a great job. For data they do not (unless you're doing PowerPoint with a few basic colors - as most business presentations tend to be).

Terry, do you find this to be true on both a PC and a Mac? I have had this problem previously and could not figure out the problem. I have an Epson projector and it is a LCD projector and when I use a DLP for the same Keynote presentation it looks way too dark. PPT don't look too bad but I don't use them much. I was thinking the problem was platform specific.


Experience is what you get when you were expecting something else.
 
Posts: 841 | Location: Farmington | Registered: March 30, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Past President
Picture of Terry White
AIM: Online Status For terrywhite at mac dot com
posted Hide Post
You're playing the movie from your Mac vs. hooking up a DVD player to.

Not sure the average bulb life.

quote:
Originally posted by janp:
but i was playing a movie from apple/itunes /rental. Should the management setting be on RGB or the other choices?

How many hours are those bulbs good for with video?


----
You can never go wrong by doing the right thing.

http://terrywhite.com

There are two kinds of computer users: those who have lost data and those who are about to — backup your Mac!
 
Posts: 6154 | Location: Atlanta, GA | Registered: June 10, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Past President
Picture of Terry White
AIM: Online Status For terrywhite at mac dot com
posted Hide Post
Never tried with a PC.

quote:
Originally posted by George Little:
quote:
For VIDEO DLP projectors do a great job. For data they do not (unless you're doing PowerPoint with a few basic colors - as most business presentations tend to be).

Terry, do you find this to be true on both a PC and a Mac? I have had this problem previously and could not figure out the problem. I have an Epson projector and it is a LCD projector and when I use a DLP for the same Keynote presentation it looks way too dark. PPT don't look too bad but I don't use them much. I was thinking the problem was platform specific.


----
You can never go wrong by doing the right thing.

http://terrywhite.com

There are two kinds of computer users: those who have lost data and those who are about to — backup your Mac!
 
Posts: 6154 | Location: Atlanta, GA | Registered: June 10, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jedi Master
Picture of janp
posted Hide Post
I'm gonna try the projector with a DVD movie,powerpoint , keynote and see if there is any variance

the bulb has about 40 hours of use
 
Posts: 1057 | Location: dearbon,MI , USA | Registered: June 11, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Poobah
Picture of Chuck M
posted Hide Post
DLP projectors are very good for movies, when they're priced above $4000 (list price). Then they have enough electronics in them to control the midtones. The same is true for LCD projectors, except they might be slightly cheaper. The color wheels in DLP projectors need excellent internals to function well, and it is doubtful the Dell 3400MP has the correct guts.

The list price of the Dell 3400MP is $900 - probably the street price is less. This is essentially a data projector - with no electronics for movies. It displays a few dozen colors for Excel charts, and that's it.

For a good looking movie, the interpolation electronics & software need to be present - that costs substantial money. Then you need to either calibrate the projector or profile it. If not showing movies, it is better to profile the projector with an Eye One Beamer and then use ColorSync to control the color from a computer.

Another possible reason for the dark picture: you may have had the Dell on energy saving mode. It specs a 1500 lumen bulb, which should be bright enough for dark room, but not a light room. Someone might have put the wrong bulb in the projector to save a few bucks - they cost $350 for this projector - about half the price of the projector.

Getting good looking movies is not cheap or easy - it's not really a quick project for the uninitiated. Hopefully, someday, Hollywood will include profiles with movies so they look good without customer intervention. But ease-of-use is not a Hollywood priority right now. Good looking movies make more money, but movie profits seem to be adequate to suppress any more innovation - especially as concerns image quality. I hope Apple or Adobe circumvents the studio bottleneck, and simply includes the ability to embed profiles in their video software (Premiere, Final Cut Pro, and Quicktime). I hope they don't wait for studio approval or SMPTE approval. None of us has that much time.

If anyone wants to learn more about home cinema, visit the CEDIA Expo or InfoCOMM Expo. They're very interesting, and the best places to shop.
 
Posts: 2075 | Registered: June 23, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Past President
Picture of Terry White
AIM: Online Status For terrywhite at mac dot com
posted Hide Post
Keep in mind that playing a DVD through your computer will probably yield the same results. To see a difference you need to connect a DVD player directly to the projector's video in ports.

quote:
Originally posted by janp:
I'm gonna try the projector with a DVD movie,powerpoint , keynote and see if there is any variance

the bulb has about 40 hours of use


----
You can never go wrong by doing the right thing.

http://terrywhite.com

There are two kinds of computer users: those who have lost data and those who are about to — backup your Mac!
 
Posts: 6154 | Location: Atlanta, GA | Registered: June 10, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Poobah
Picture of Chuck M
posted Hide Post
I don't think that's quite correct, Terry. DVD players do not contain ColorSync (a gross oversight by Apple). There is no way DVD players can ever equal the color output of ColorSync.

Videos (or DVD's) do not permit embedded profiles, like photos permit in their metadata. Something needs to give meaning to all those digital numbers representing the video image. Currently, there is no possibility of closed loop control - anything goes, and usually does. If anything is out of spec (and it is 99.9999% of the time), the color is wrong. There is no absolute reference for color in the video delivery chain. (Color bars aren't absolute - and "calibration" methods at best provide an 8-point calibration - quite often subjectively. In 99.9% of cases, it's only a 5-point calibration.)

Compare that to profiling which adjusts millions of colors in real time - with a computer (laptop or desktop) - to an absolute color standard. Another advantage of profiling is that it accounts for environmental factors, like screen color & room lighting. There is no way for calibration methods to account for outside viewing factors.

So, if Adobe wants to get a big jump on its competition, take my thinly veiled suggestion back to Adobe. Adobe will then need to offer an application that can use the profiles - something to output images (still or moving) to the video ports.
 
Posts: 2075 | Registered: June 23, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post



Jedi Master
Picture of janp
posted Hide Post
Geez guys,,,I just asked a simple question now I'm into electromagnetic quantum physics Smile
 
Posts: 1057 | Location: dearbon,MI , USA | Registered: June 11, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jedi Council Member
Picture of George Little
posted Hide Post
In all respect to Chuck M who is obviously way ahead of most of us and for sure me, I found this article comparing DLP and LCD technology rather interesting and written so that I could get a better understanding of what to expect from the two different types of projectors I've been dealing with. http://www.focusedtechnology.com/lcdvsdlp.html


Experience is what you get when you were expecting something else.
 
Posts: 841 | Location: Farmington | Registered: March 30, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Past President
Picture of Terry White
AIM: Online Status For terrywhite at mac dot com
posted Hide Post
Chuck, all I can tell you is what I have experienced first hand with DLP projectors, Macs and external DVD players.

1) Connected a PowerBook up to MULTIPLE DLP projectors from different manufacturers (InFocus, HP, etc.) and got the same horrible results across the board as outlined above. I spent several minutes tweaking settings, changing profiles, etc. and could never get the colors or contrast to be true (or even in the same ballpark) as to what I was seeing on my Mac's LCD screen.

2) Connected a portable DVD player to the video in ports of the same DLP projector (an InFocus) and the video was GREAT!

My test challenge remains the same:
Open up your favorite drawing program on your Mac. Draw a box and fill it with 100% YELLOW. Now connect that Mac to a DLP projector and tell me what you see? Connect the same Mac to an LCD projector and tell me what you see? Unless things have changed drastically in the past 2 years, you'll see more of a GREEN box on the DLP projector and YELLOW on the LCD projector.

My conclusion (and take it for what it's worth) is LCD projectors are a BETTER all around solution as they look great not only from a data perspective (showing business slideshows, photos, software demos, etc.), but they also look great for video. DLP projectors do have the advantage when it comes to size (they can be really small), but the tradeoff in image quality just wasn't worth it to me.

I'm not an expert on color. I don't profile my devices.

However, I expect that when I connect my computer up to do a presentation, that what I see on the big screen will be reasonably close to what I'm seeing on the little screen. With DLP that just wasn't the case for me. With LCD that is almost always the case.
Your mileage may vary.

I have gotten consistently GREAT results with Epson LCD data projectors and have no complaints with them. I have a Sony LCD home theater HD projector (that I also have a Mac mini hooked up to) and again GREAT results all the way around.

quote:
Originally posted by Chuck M:
I don't think that's quite correct, Terry. DVD players do not contain ColorSync (a gross oversight by Apple). There is no way DVD players can ever equal the color output of ColorSync.


----
You can never go wrong by doing the right thing.

http://terrywhite.com

There are two kinds of computer users: those who have lost data and those who are about to — backup your Mac!
 
Posts: 6154 | Location: Atlanta, GA | Registered: June 10, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jedi Master
Picture of janp
posted Hide Post
So Terry why does the dVD player work better rather than the computer with a DLP? How expensive or good was that DVD player,,,obviously not a a small portable purchased at ABC for $10
 
Posts: 1057 | Location: dearbon,MI , USA | Registered: June 11, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Poobah
Picture of Chuck M
posted Hide Post
Terry - I don't think I have the equipment to conduct your challenge (no projector). I don't doubt you've had those experiences, and your experiences are different than mine. I would like to understand WHY the Mac alters the colors, and WHY the LCD looks better than the DLP.

Yellow is not a primary color - it's a mixture of red and green light. That could have something to with it. That is an interesting and simple test.

Mostly, I have experience with FoMoCo projectors, all being data LCD's of various brands and prices. I did profile an LCD projector at Henry Ford Centennial Library, with dramatic results; I couldn't really "fool around" with Ford's projectors.

Most of Ford's projectors were data projectors. The HFCL projector was a $4500 Panasonic LCD cinema projector - which was poor-looking "out of the box." It just didn't look as bad as a Kodak Carousel projector (very red, with a 2700˚K bulb). You can improve digital projectors - that's not practical with Kodak (where do you get a 5500˚K bulb?).

All my personal experience is gained from showing slides, which can be profiled. Movies cannot be profiled (which is why I suggest that Adobe make it possible via Premiere and a projection application).

Most of my opinion was gathered from InfoCOMM, and to a lesser extent, CEDIA - talking to the sales people & engineers, some of whom were probably experts - not all. Some were more expert than me. I also subscribed to some industry magazines. So my opinion is an average of varying views by professionals in the TV industry. But that still leaves a lot of unknowns about our knowledge.

I strongly suspect the problem stems from low cost DLP projectors because they're data projectors (3- or 4-color color wheels, and virtually no sophisticated electronics to drive them). Low end LCD projectors may have a distinct advantage in color reproduction - it's a less complex system for mixing colors. Your experience is also different in that you are connecting an external DVD player to play movies through a Mac. The Mac may be altering colors (which sort of supports my claims for profiling and an unstable delivery chain regarding color). I haven't had those experiences. I play slide shows which are profiled from my Mac's hard drive. Lastly, CEDIA and InfoCOMM really don't emphasize data projectors, which is why data projectors are classified differently (and priced differently). Cinema projectors are made for movies.

I wish we had a little laboratory where we could investigate our observations a little bit further. This sounds like a good demo for CEDIA. Maybe this is a good off-line topic for dinner after the next MacGroup meeting?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Chuck M,
 
Posts: 2075 | Registered: June 23, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Past President
Picture of Terry White
AIM: Online Status For terrywhite at mac dot com
posted Hide Post
Actually the DVD player I used was one of the portable models. It wasn't $10, but it wasn't that expensive either.

quote:
Originally posted by janp:
So Terry why does the dVD player work better rather than the computer with a DLP? How expensive or good was that DVD player,,,obviously not a a small portable purchased at ABC for $10


----
You can never go wrong by doing the right thing.

http://terrywhite.com

There are two kinds of computer users: those who have lost data and those who are about to — backup your Mac!
 
Posts: 6154 | Location: Atlanta, GA | Registered: June 10, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jedi Master
Picture of janp
posted Hide Post
hey chuck I'll bring that projector home this week and we can do the acid test with my MC book , DVD player and even apple TV,,,what Fun!!!!! anybody have an extra bedsheet I can hang for a screen? Smile
 
Posts: 1057 | Location: dearbon,MI , USA | Registered: June 11, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jedi Council Member
Picture of George Little
posted Hide Post
Just came back from a presentation where the facility had a DLP projector and the presenterr ahead of me had a PC and a PPT presentation and it looked great. My presentation was a Keynote converted PPT presentation where I'd added slides and the presentation, while acceptable was definitely darker that the PC presentation. I'm with Terry, the DLP does not work as well for a presentation on Keynote. LCD projector I have show the same projection much better than the DLP I had to use today. Guess I better take my own projector with me next time. Oh, the DLP projector I used today was a Sharp.


Experience is what you get when you were expecting something else.
 
Posts: 841 | Location: Farmington | Registered: March 30, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jedi Master
Picture of janp
posted Hide Post
well the loser seems to be the Macbook. I loaded Nemo and tried a very cheap DVD player and it looked so so good via S cable as well as single component yellow. The McBk was again simply over saturated with the color. The presentation of a powerpoint and keynote was also oversaturated if I used a picture.
 
Posts: 1057 | Location: dearbon,MI , USA | Registered: June 11, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Poobah
Picture of Chuck M
posted Hide Post
What profile is selected in Display Preferences when using your MacBook? You should probably use "NTSC" when playing DVD movies on your laptop and watching them on your laptop. You will need a (custom) profile when using the MacBook as a DVD player and sending video output to a projector or TV.

The DVD player looks good because its only possible output color space is NTSC.

You don't say what display device you were watching Nemo on. A TV or projector?
 
Posts: 2075 | Registered: June 23, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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